Snakes and Ladders - An Interview with Philip Gardiner


Submitted by Thoth

MAD- (aka ThothmosesIII in The Book of THoTH Forums)

Many of us have heard of the ancient tales of King Arthur and the Holy Grail.

From the chalice believed to have been used at the Last Supper, to the cup said to have caught Christ’s blood at the Crucifiction; there are many theories and interpretations as to what the Grail consisted of, or if it even existed in the physical realm at all.

In his new book, ’The Serpent Grail’, Author Philip Gardiner asks these very important questions, and seeks to reach the heart of the matter concerning what the Grail Quest actually represents.

Not only does he find that the traditions and folklore of the grail myth transcend past the medieval time period of which it is largely associated, but he discovered that a time spanning serpent-cult might very well be responsible for the development of these tales in order to guard the greatest secrets of mankind. I recently had the opportunity to speak with Philip Gardiner concerning some of the topics of his latest work.

MAD: Firstly, I’d like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to discuss your new title, ’The Serpent Grail’. It was an immensely enjoyable read and full of vital information that is extremely relevant to not only current events, but also for seekers of Truth everywhere. One of the things that initially caught my attention about this work are the various pictures that you’ve displayed within. Many of them are photographs that you yourself have taken of grail and esoteric artwork from around the world. You seem like a real ’man about town’ when it comes to sacred sites and power places. For those readers who are new to your work, could you maybe give us a brief summery of your background in this field, as well as your professional relationship with fellow researcher, and co author Gary Osborn? Likewise, what initially lead you on the intriguing ’Quest for the Holy Grail’?

Gardiner: Well my background is in marketing. I used to own a PR company and advise people how to push their product, service or even organization. It was kind of spin-doctoring. That’s all very well, but it was, for me, very unfulfilling and empty and my inner desires were to firstly seek the truth, because I could see a lot of history was propaganda and secondly to try and earn a living for my family doing something that didn’t give me an ulcer! And so I put into place a short, medium, and long term plan and it seems to be working!! Weird eh!. As for going ’out and about’, yes I do like to see for myself and one thing I have found is that no matter how many text books we have, there is always more out there. I just came back from Edinburgh and Rosslyn Chapel and I was amazed at what had been missed and what wasn’t in the text books. There is evidence that the chapel was first built in a different location, and there are Rosicrucian images that I have never seen mentioned. There’s also something much more ’in touch’ for me when I am actually there, I can feel the place. Its a little like being an actor getting into the part, it helps you write the thing down with more meaning. Its not always fun, often you can get into trouble, especially if you push things a little too much. At one truly Masonic place I was set upon by three big dogs and others have threatened my life. Generally this is through misunderstanding of what I am about though.

Gary Osborn is a researcher who I came across when I received a manuscript at my company. It was from Gary, and I noticed something in it that needed to be said and, so I simply couldn’t write the Grail book without him. I put off publication by a year just so Gary could be included. He’s working on a new book now about some incredible new evidence on the Great Pyramid and I am sure it will go down well. Our last book will be the revised version of ’The Shining Ones’ due out in August.

MAD: Being chased by Masonic dogs! That’s definitely something you don’t want to see everyday. Yes, I understand you just got back from shooting a documentary at Rosslyn Chapel in Edinburgh on Freemasonry. Any details on this documentary, and will it be available in the US?

Gardiner: I am told that it will be shown on Discovery and a channel called "Vision" - but that doesn’t mean anything to me. In the UK it will be Channel 4 and in other countries I just think it may be Discovery again. It will be 3 part and will feature many authors and lots of new material, especially some on money (dollar) that I gave them.

MAD: Sounds very interesting, we’ll be on the lookout for it. I recently finished reading your latest book ’The Serpent Grail’. One of the running themes is that of the Grail Triad, or the trinity that might be reached through the secrets, or ’ambrosia’, of which the sacred grail has been said to contain; on one level or another. The elixir of immortality, nectar of life, manna, or what you might refer to as the ’healing serpents’. Could you please go into a little detail about the concept of the Grail Triad, and why you believe that each point might help us in better realizing the truer potential of the unfolding Grail myths?

Gardiner: Well Michael, the thing is that the Grail to those who do not have a background in mythology and the mystery traditions, may seem very complex and so we decided to us a simple system to break down the concept for everybody. We decided that it was only right to select 3 levels to the triad, because this is mirrored so much in myth. The three levels are simple.

-The first level is the level of reality, of physical things, artifacts, substances and this covered such things as the tantric skull cups, venom and blood mixture etc.

-The second level is the level of allegory of myth and folktale. This is the level wherein is hidden both the secrets of the 1st level and the secrets of the 3rd level.

-This third level is the enlightenment, the illumination we are all seeking and this gives rise to those wonderful images we see surrounding Grail Lore of light and beauty. This we found to also be in relation to the snake, in that the ancient Hindu kundalini (coiled serpent) was intricately linked with the tantric skull cups and indeed the venom and blood mixture of the Elixir within the skull. The 3rd level was the mixing of opposites, the fusion of the male and female, of order and chaos within the mind. The 1st level was the mixing of venom and blood within a cup or skull (mind) and therefore was physical and not metaphysical.

MAD: The way in which you have broken down the 3 levels of the Grail Triad does help to simplify things for newcomers to this information. I found the presentation very refreshing. Your comments on the serpent element, which is prevelant in your work, leads me to my next question. One of the things that sets you apart from some of the other researchers of King Arthur and the various symbolic meanings of the Chalice, is that you take a bold stance in associating the Grail myths with a rich history of Serpent worship, or ‘Serpent Societies’. Those who honored the icon of the serpent for healing purposes as well as certain rituals that might be seen as macabre or ‘Satanic’ in their nature. If I might use a quote from your book, page 313:

“There is no doubt that the snake/serpent is deeply rooted in the mythology of the world. There is no other creature on the planet with such a powerful and widespread tradition that embraces everything from mythology and folklore to medicinal value. From ancient pre-civilization to modern medicine, the serpent is ever present, either as a symbol or through its practical use. As we have show, it is also discernible in the stories associated with the great resurrecting gods of the world’s religions.

"There must be more to all of this than the snake’s simple ability to slough its skin. In our view the explanation is very simple: the snake has within it the ability to heal and extend life. It has been used for this purpose for thousands of years. It was the first in this field, and when science catches up, it will be the last.”

Given the far reaching implications of the serpent icon with religious ideals such as The Garden of Eden, as well as various reptilian gods and entities from mythology, honoring of the dragon, the Caduceus symbol of medicine, ect, could you touch upon some of your theories regarding why you believe the serpent plays so prominently in our human history, and in particular with the Grail myths?

Gardiner: Ah yes, the question I love the best - why? Why does the serpent appear so widespread in ancient tradition and mythology? Well, I asked this question myself several thousand times and so I went down the road of checking other animals. For instance I could have chosen the bull, and indeed we do find that this icon is seen ’almost’ worldwide, but not quite. There is the scorpion, ant, and even goat, but they don’t share the concepts of wisdom, enlightenment, healing and of course all the opposites of these things that any good duality should portray. Not only that, but serpent worship was even found in Ireland, and there are no snakes there. And so we are left with tales of Christian Saints demonizing the snake across the world, slaying dragons and kicking out serpents from the land. The truth can be found on the 3rd level of the Grail triad we created - the enlightenment. Now we can in this also see the ’dark’ side of the serpent because many of the methods used by ancient man to access his own internal world has to have been the use of drugs and even when the method is natural and involves meditation or prayer, often the bodies own hormone drug cabinet will open up and wander freely.

This access into the internal world, if uncontrolled, can cause serious mental problems and even today the so-called kundalini experience, linked to the road to enlightenment, can and has caused psychosis and also those with psychosis often have near-kundalini experiences. There are always two sides and so we have to walk a pathway between these world’s of order and chaos. This pathway is multi-levelled. It is the hypnagogic - the point between waking and sleeping and thereby being aware of the unconscious world -an altered state of consciousness and within this realm man see’s what Carl Jung termed archetypes - things we all see. Jeremy Narby et al have shown that one of these archetypes is the pattern of DNA or the wave form and as ancient man had no knowledge of DNA or wave-forms (unless the aliens told him) then he simply made a face out of the cloud and attributed the internal world to the snake. This is why the Naga of India live beneath the ’waters’, this is why Christ could walk on water - between the world’s and this is the otherworld of the ancients.

When we die we look like we sleep, when we sleep we look like we die and so our ancestors thought the two things were the same and so to see what was within the sleeping state was to see what was there after death and what was always there was the snake.

MAD: We spoke in an email recently in which I expressed my concerns about the ‘negative’ aspects of honoring the serpent/dragon, as well as the positive, and you yourself relayed that you have your own concerns about the ‘darker’ elements related to this material, and alchemy. In particular you spoke of Kundalini, or the ‘Fire-Serpent’ of the Hindus, in relation to serpent societies and the awakening of the ’Inner-Grail’.

Would you care to reiterate on some of the dangers you perceive for new ‘initiates’ into this information and how serpent symbolism might be mind-altering in a negative way for some individuals? I realize that the icon of the serpent has been stigmatized by Christian doctrines in the past few thousand years due to associations with Lucifer and Satan, but with much of this information we can see the ’propaganda’ elements in the serpent, or ’death-cult’ as well. The chalice as a skull, the drinking of ambrosia (which some see as blood), or lunar menstrual blood, sacrificial rituals of fertility: the Anunnaki, Seth, Typhon, Lilith and other destructive figures connected to the serpent. My question would be, what ’negative’ aspects, if any, do you perceive in the historical honoring of the reptile?

I realize that you basically covered this question with your previous answer on Kundalini; just seeing if there was any further points you could relay in the negative elements for the history of serpent-societies?

Gardiner: Oh I see a great many negative connotations to the serpent as I relayed in my email. The kundalini for one can be very dangerous and it is taking off like a new wave of religion at the moment, which is to my mind a dangerous thing in itself. I wish no part as a new ’religious leader’ and so myself and a psychologist have investigated the kundalini in relation to psychosis and found that it is in fact a biological electromagnetic knife edge. Unless one is perfectly balanced one can easily perceive the dark side of human nature and be swallowed up by it. We have huge amounts of data to show that the spontaneous and even attempted kundalini can cause marital break ups and even divorce and suicide through the division caused in the mind. Its like being given the world’s greatest aeroplane without the knowledge of how to land it. We want to take off and experience the joy of flight, but when we have to come back down to earth we have no understanding of how to do that and because the ride was so good we want to stay up there in the sky. I have seen too many good friends now lost to this ’nexus’ and bringing them back to reality is almost like cult-breaking. That said, if in balance one can control the ’awakening’ then one may be onto a real exciting human experience and this is what our ancestors were trying to tell us in many of their folk tales. The Grail legends do of course ask -"who does it serve?"

MAD: One of the topics you speak about often, which fascinates me, is that of the ’Axis Mundi’ or the ’World Tree’ as being a sacred vortex in which our duel natures can transcend beyond our normal understanding. A place where our consciousness is lifted beyond that of everyday perceptions and we begin to truly realize the infinite nature of not only the universe, but the potential of self. You also mention this as being the ’Grail Castle’, or the ’Mountain of Salvation’. Another quote from page 75 of your book states:

"However, we are dealing with multiple meanings here, and with information that seems to be arranged on several levels. Each level becomes more meaningful the closer we get to the truth. Like climbing a sacred mountain, we ascend until we reach the apex."

Do you see the Grail Quest as being akin to a voyage up the Sacred Mountain, or the discovery of the World Tree? Like the serpent aspects in your research, do you feel that the idea of the holy mountain plays an equally important role in the full realization of the Grail? Such as Moses and the brazen serpent staff, Mt. Sinai and the Ten Commandments. Mountains always seem to be a place of contemplation and attainment through meditation and understanding. Some even believe that the pyramids of the world were built, in part, to represent the sacred mountain, reaching out to the heavens. Would you agree with this idea?

Gardiner: I would COMPLETELY agree with your perception on it Michael and I am truly heartened to see you mention it. The Grail Quest is truly the discovery of the self and so one needs to question what this self is. The Grail Quest itself comes to us from Gnostic backgrounds as we can all agree - the medieval writings hiding many Gnostic concepts, the Gnostics having their very own serpent chalice - the cup of the Agathodaemon. And so one should ask what did they see the self as - what did they see as the ultimate knowledge?

The answer is there and it lies in the quest. We can seek and seek and never find and only when we rest and loosen our mind does the answer arise, like the serpent upon the tree. Its like this, when we are about to fall asleep we often have amazing ideas. This is a really creative time for us. How many of us have thought of something truly profound just as we are falling asleep and then we think, "oh, I’ll remember that for in the morning"? When we wake, we simply cannot remember what it was! This is because the frequencies in the mind are suddenly firing when we awake and take us far away from the sleep state and so the answers to our wonderfully creative imagination must lie in the unconscious world. That world is dealing with all the things our conscious mind cannot. We have enough just seeing, hearing, smelling and feeling. Are you aware of EVERYTHING in your room? Can you possibly see it all? Are you aware of your breathing, blinking? No, of course not, at least not unless you are made aware of it. And so all these things are dealt with inside that computer mind. But, there is more in that room, there is more in the quantum universe and our unconscious mind is aware of all these things -at least that is what we were told.

Billions of particles fly through us, agitating our atoms in our mind, on our skin, and our senses pick them all up. Our mind then deals with them. Quantum theory suggests that everything occurs everywhere all the time. Can we become aware of this? If this is all true then this is the ultimate ’superconscious’ state, the flames licking upon the heads of the apostles in Acts 2, where they suddenly know all things and all tongues.

MAD: You present this ’conscious-sleep’ as a function of the ’Axis Mundi’, or the central point in this drawing together of all of our polar elements. All of our fragmented perceptions, the dualistic nature of humanity itself, might be made a-new through this ’Kundalini’ awakening. The ’Grail Mountain’ or the singularity point in which the ’Third Eye’ is awoken. But, if you don’t mind, I will raise the topic of our duality up to you in a moment. But first, there is another theme that you cover which interests many people, and that is of elongated skulls found all over the world, of which some attribute to an ’Alien’ and UFO phenomenon.

You’ve discovered that there is a more logical approach to this enigma within the ranks of ritualistic practices of binding the cranium of infants in order that they might grow disproportionately large. This also goes along with the practice of religious trephination to alleviate skull pressure from the brain. This was done in order that one might experience advanced states of consciousness or enlightenment for religious/priestly purposes some 5000 years ago! The supposed seeing of visions, or prophetic dreams through the manipulation of the skull, and the ’mutated’ growth process of the brain. All over the world from South America through Europe, Africa and the elites of Egypt, we see the religious practice of skull binding. How important a factor do you think this method plays in the Grail theme, and do you believe it could have anything to do with the Biblical giants of the Nephlim?

Gardiner: Oh for sure it’s very important because again it all revolves around the skull and this was the pinnacle of the world mountain, because our spine was the tree, axis etc (although it works on a great many levels as you will gather). From the very first times what would man have used to drink from? He had no potters wheel, he used shells and skulls of beasts and each other.

The skull was all-powerful, the seat of the essence. Trephination is seen all over the globe as you so rightly point out and yes people do see this as a copy of the alien visitation, but we see it as a simple human device. It does bring on altered states of consciousness and would have made the manipulated one seemed to be almost shamanic. The frontal lobe is squashed and the pineal apparatus flattened out like a satelite dish. Hormones are secreted because of this abnormality and these are often pain killers and happy hormones, inducing the states often associated with drugs that also release the same hormones. Just how they came to do this in the first place is of course a question none of us can answer for sure, but it is suggested that it may have been a copy mentality of the serpent.

Doing this to the skull made the eyes draw out like a Hollywood Queen who has had too many face lifts! Anthropologists suggest that the gait would alter and that walking would be an almost ’slither’ and the people I discovered on Malta were called ’serpent priests’. Were these people permenantly in the ’otherworld’? Were they the real aliens? Who knows, but dna testing of artifacts reveals them to be ordinary human beings.

MAD: In relation to the skull/chalice theme, another part of the puzzle that I think separates ’The Serpent Grail’ from other books, is that not only do you present the possibility of the Grail being the ancient symbol of the Celtic cauldron, of which powerful alchemical potions were brewed, but you also put forth the possibility that the Holy Grail is actually the cauldron of the Underworld itself, or ’Cauldron of the head of Hades’. You mention the idea that the Grail quest might lead into the very territories of hell, and that through ’conquering’ or coming to terms with the guardian serpent/dragon that resides there, the secrets of immortality might be found. The rebirth of the Phoenix that was all an inner journey of self discovery.

Do you think that this idea of death, the cauldron/grail representing the underworld, the royal bond of the River Styx, is one of the reasons that this ’Serpent Cult’ appears to honor death so much?That the ancients believed that death represented the realm of transcendence, so death, along with the serpent, was worshiped in actuality as a symbol of new life and new beginnings?

Gardiner: You have a wonderful way, Michael, of pointing out the truth and I applaud you for that: well-done. Yes, the duality within this Underworld reveals both the elements of the serpent - good and bad, life-bringer and destroyer and it has been this way ever since the first recorded texts from the first civilizations. To have this same true internal element come through thousands of years right down to us today is amazing to me, and yet it has suffered from ’literal’ interpretations - the most guilty being the Catholic Church. The perceptions of those visiting this internal ’Underworld’ is one of immortality and so it is the ’true’ Elixir on the metaphysical side of things or the 3rd part of our triad. It is just so incredibly amazing that snake venom itself also has healing attributes. It is the wonder and beauty of the perfect universe that Hermes spoke of and that is repeated so many times - as above, so below. Once we can truly grasp THAT concept and THAT alone we are on our way to finding the Grail.

What is up there in the universe is also within ourselves, but also in the unconscious mind - the Underworld is there a reflection of the Upperworld - like the portal itself, water. Like alchemy we must be generated (born), reduced (broken) and regenerated(put back together again mentally) before we can see and this is the phoenix. True enlightenment is about eradicating all the rubbish we have built up, all the subtle mind manipulations of marketing men (like I was), of politicians, of the commercial and religious world. YOU are what YOU are, not what they tell you to be, and when you discover this deep intuitive self and you have strength, knowledge and will to balance your life, then you will be in an enlightened state. This does not need the knife-edge of the kundalini of course.

MAD: Again you mention Kundalini as a World Mountain experience. The flow of lava from the underworld rising up through the base of the spine, into the brain, and out of the top of the head in an almost orgasmic release. The Indian fire-serpent of awareness.

Gardiner: Quite so and a well-spotted symbol my friend!!

MAD: Well Philip, your book raises a lot of important questions, and I’m glad that you’ve granted this time to talk about some of your discoveries. ’The Serpent Grail’ would be an excellent addition to the library of any truth-seeker, as it covers many interesting topics. And, I’m sure that like you, our website at is no ’snuggle-buddy’ to the Vatican.

But, again this draws us to the duel nature of man, or the trinity nature which must be brought into a unison, such as the alchemical symbol of perfection in the Roman Janus figure. The past and the present coming together as one force, Alpha and Omega, our polarities brought into harmony. One concept that is often presented in this ideal is that of the Androgynous god/goddess who is both male and female, who watches the doors of ends and beginnings. The one who holds the key in our understanding of wholeness.

A variety of gods and goddesses have taken on duel roles in the history of mythology, and even change genders over the course of centuries, or from culture to culture. If you would, could you please draw some further conclusions on the role of the alchemical androgyny, and how this relates to the understanding of the serpent in a healing aspect?

Gardiner: Well, there are a number of ways that we can approach this. One is the psychological way, where the duality inherent within man is both good and bad, both order and chaos and this to me is a far superior method of explanation. You see, too much chaos is bad and too much order is bad. Every gene pool needs chaos to come in to broaden its scope and not to be inbred. The attempt by ancient pharoah’s to ’order’ their own gene pool was often disastrous. The same is true of the psyche which needs a certain amount of ’chaos’ or indeed ’imagination’. Great discoveries only come about through the odd people of the world, but then the ’ordinary’ people bring balance and order by putting the imaginative creation into production!

The key for us all is to learn to come into balance between order and chaos and NOT to go for either. How do we get into the Temple to meet the divinity? We walk ’between’ the pillars. If we were to concentrate on one pillar we would walk into IT and get a bloody nose. We should avoid the division and re-unite these opposites and walk the middle-path to enter the Temple. The Ark of the Covenant was the same - the cherubim were facing INWARDS to the ’kapporeth’ - the seat - and their opposite vision was concentrated on the mind of he who sat on the seat. The space between was the most important part and the same thing applies to Boaz and Joachim, the Masonic pillars (from the Temple of Solomon). Solomon himself was a tyrant without the influence of Sheba, the Queen of Serpents.

This union of the duality is seen in the androgynous figures of alchemy and the ancient world and the power and energy of this incredible ancient psychology is seen in the caduceus or the kundalini - the entwined serpents, which cross and ’meet’ in union at various stages - for one thing is sure, it is a constant work upon the self of regeneration, just as the temple was reduced, so too it should be rebuilt.

MAD: Going to throw you a bit of a curve-ball here, but on numerous occasions in your book, you mention the ancient peoples of the Scythians, Cimmerians, and Phoenicians. I’ve always been intrigued by the notion that one of these cultures might have played a part in the construction of Stonehenge. Do you have any information that might shed light on the more prominent role of any of these three cultures in the building of the Stonehenge monument? Do you think that these ’lost’ civilizations deserve more recognition in relation to the ’serpent-cult’ symbolism and the Grail myth?

Gardiner: I love a good curve ball, always more interesting trying to hit that. I think we ought to see history slightly differently. Today we have Spanish, Italian, Mexican, Brazilian etc. All different cultures I think you might agree, although there are obvious ’Latin’ similarities of course. But there is one thread which unites them all - the Catholic Church. This is the religion, this is the spiritual driving force, the part of these cultures which directs the buildings! It is the mystery, tradition and knowledge of the Catholic Church which drives the structures that we see across these diverse cultures. What we find in ancient history is that structures, folklores and religions seem to match across the cultures you mention. They may have different names, they may eat different foods, dance, play, work and speak in different tongues, but they all had the same root belief system based upon the same astrotheological deities. So yes, the Phoenicians with their great navigation capabilities for sure came to the shores of Great Britain and brought with them the ’belief systems’, the building capabilities etc, but so too in my opinion had mankind been traversing the globe for a great many years before that. And yes, they do deserve more recognition, for the whole world seems to turn to Egypt, Greece and Rome because of their might and longstanding, and yet we miss this subtle undercurrent of belief that like the Catholic Church today, was the travelling spawn of a greater virus.

MAD: Thanks for the segue Phil, because this brings us right into the next topic I wanted to ask you about in terms of historic ’propaganda’, manipulation, and control. One of the various possibilities in covering the Grail myth is that of the ’Holy’ bloodline, or ’Royal’ heritage. Many researchers from Fritz Springmeier to David Icke speak often about the serpent, or ’reptilian’ qualities of the royal bloodline. In your own research, do you believe that, initially, the Grail myths were used as a tool for the Elites in order to guard their secrets; or do you feel that the Grail concept should have a deeper message of the inner-self related to each individual in their own spiritual quest? How do you think this ’Divine’ bloodline affects the current events in our daily political and religious realm? Moreso, with the Basilisk being a form of Dragon, as in St. Peter’s Basilica, how do you see this in relation to the inner control of the ’mystery schools’ within the Vatican?

Gardiner: Well there’s quite a lot there, but I will try and keep this as simple as possible, understanding that there is always more below the surface. The reptilian agenda of Icke et al is utter cobblers of course and a lot of it is based upon the stupid misunderstandings of ancient history, symbolism and myth. That said, a lot of what Icke says I agree with - we have been manipulated and we still are. Every TV program, every magazine, newspaper and almost every textbook is spinning one yarn or another. Companies manipulate us for wealth, religions for power and politicians for both. The problem comes when all these three things are united in the secret society.

I see no bloodline because I see no strict and actual Jesus (or indeed Laurence Gardner’s ’Jesus Junior’) as a literal figure. He is the accumulation of many pagan deities and possibly laid onto a real figure such as Appollonius. And so, the bloodline nonsense of the Priory of Sion, Baigent et al is all based upon the egocentric plottings of a few surrealist Frenchmen and misinformation. There is much much more to this that involves the Freemasons, the Stuart lineage and some very dangerous power plays, but to say too much on that right now would upset the apple-cart and I have
children to think about!

MAD: I understand. There is a good deal of information out there already concerning the Vatican manipulation, Zionism, the ’Black Nobility’, International Banking, and how this connects to the serpent ideal, or various ’savior’ gods and goddesses throughout religion. That can be left up for people to draw their own conclusions and make up their own minds. You just mentioned researcher Laurence Gardner, another who speaks about the ’shining ones’ and serpent symbolism. I know that the spelling is different, but many might notice the similarities in your last names. To avoid any confusion, is there any kind of relation there?

Gardiner: No there’s no relation whatsoever. Gardiner, my spelling is the same as the field whereupon Rosslyn Chapel is built - Gardiner’s Brae. The term comes from ’to guard’, whereas Gardener is obviously somebody who used to be a guard.

MAD: Sorry, just had to ask that. There is much more I’d enjoy discussing with you, but in closing, despite all of the occultic undertones and reptilian references in your book, it still comes across with a very positive message overall. A very spiritual and empowering approach to this topic. Recently there has been a bit of a stir regarding the ’Lost Gospel of Judas’, and you yourself speak of the healing aspects of the serpent. With all of the deception in the world, the manipulation and control, do you see any way in which things can be rectified and redeemed between genuine seekers of truth, and those who wish to impose this ’New World Order’ ideal?

Do you believe this world might be harmonized and made whole by self discovery instead of force? And ultimately, what force do you think the Grail myth serves, or should serve?

Gardiner: I am afraid I could easily be seen to be a little non-PC (politically correct) here as I don’t see this ’New Age’ resurgence of spiritual outpouring in the world myself. I see man doing what man has always done - walk both paths of chaos and order and understand neither properly. I think pockets of cultures will do well, survive, learn from ourselves and history, while others will not. It’s such a hard task to tell somebody that the clock should be pointing at 6 when its pointing at 12. You have to move it 1 minute at a time or they feel they have missed something. Slowly, with more information on the internet, with more seekers, we may see knowledge being our tool to fight the rubbish of control -I certainly hope so.

As for the Grail, at the end of the day if it does not serve us (and I mean the true self) then what is the point?

MAD: And, as ’Serpent Grail’ seems to relay, the whole point IS the inner journey, which very well might reveal some of the greatest secrets and mysteries of the outer world. Philp, it has been an honor speaking with you about some of these topics (of which have facinated the world for thousands of years), and I hope that we might get a chance to discuss more soon.

Thank you very much for your time, I wish you the absolute best of luck, and look forward to your coming contributions in this field. Please don’t be a stranger. Any final thoughts you’d like to leave for the readers?

Gardiner: No Michael, THANK YOU for giving me the opportunity to have my voice heard.

In a world where the media is controlled by money and power, truth is not an issue that often raises its head and outlets such as this are invaluable. All I can say to people is that we go along in our lives creating noise whether it is commercial, religious or political. Its time for us to be silent, to sit and watch the natural world; to listen to the natural rythms; to feel the warmth of the solar rays and to contemplate upon who we are. We are humans; two legged animals on a world spinning in the infinity of space. We are not fiscal capitalist cogs in anybodies wheel; we are not religious tools to be thrown like scraps of meat at the enemy and we are certainly not methods of advancement for power hungry politicians. We are. Take control of your life and you have the Grail in your hand. Now who does it serve?

My warmest wishes and thoughts to everybody out there!


MAD is an administator at ( , and co-host of it’s weekly ’Revolution Radio’ program; the archives can be found at ( . Episode 56, to be posted on Thursday, April 21st, will cover more topics from Philip Gardiner’s book ’The Serpent Grail’, as well as the idea of the Grail Quest and serpent-cults.

Philip Gardiner is the author of three well acclaimed books: ’Proof?: Does God Exist’, ’The Shining Ones’, and his latest ’The Serpent Grail’. He is currently working on a DVD release of which he will write, produce, and direct entitled, ’Secrets of the Serpent’; as well as the upcoming book release, ’Gnosis: The Secret of Solomon’s Temple Revealed’. You can listen to his regular podcasts HERE ( , or keep up to date with his work at ( .